View Full Version : Checkride Tomorrow, But Cert. Expired!!
So after 45 hours and 4 months of flying, my instructor signed me off and scheduled my checkride for tomorrow morning. Come to find out that he did not realize that my student pilot certificate had been expired since Feb. 09. He figured that my third class medical as well as my student pilot certificate both expired at the same time of 36 months (I am under 40). So I took his word for it figuring he knew all the regs considering he has been instructing for many years.
Well the DPE catches the mistake and basically explains that of my hours after FEB. 09 are not valid, which would really suck considering I began in April!
One thing I have going for me is the fact that my instructor just graduated from Law school and he is trying his best to figure a way out of this mess. He did mention that the FAA recently (begining of August) amended the rule that the expiration dates would be the same for the medical and the certificate. So I have my fingers crossed that I will still be able to take my ride tomorrow morning!
I am meeting with the Examiner today and I will let you all know what happens.
3rd class medicals for under40 at the time of exam are good for 60 months now.
3rd class medicals for under40 at the time of exam are good for 60 months now.
That is true, so I wonder if the student pilot certificate will be good for 60 months as well with this new rule?
Yeah, this has always been a bit of a peculiarity. Before the recent rule changes, a student pilot under 40 would go to an AME for his first medical, and leave with a card that is both his student pilot certificate and a third-class medical certificate. The student pilot certificate's duration, per 61.19, was 24 months, while the medical's duration, per 61.23, was 36 months. So you had a single piece of paper with two different expiration dates.
In July of '08, the FAA extended the duration of a third-class medical, for pilots under 40, to 60 months, but the student pilot certificate was still only good for 24 months, so the paper still had two different expiration dates, now ever farther apart.
The most recent changes, announced in August, and which I think go into effect on October 20 (though don't count on this), extend the duration of a student pilot certificate to match that of the medical, so it's either 24 months or 60 months, depending on your age when it was issued.
It sounds like you got your student pilot cert in Feb of '07, and that you were under 40 at that time. Is that correct? If so, then any solo hours you did after Feb of '09, but before whenever the new reg, announced in August, goes into effect (again, I think this is in October), were done illegally.
I'm not entirely sure what happens when you've logged hours illegally. Do those just "not count"? I dunno.
But if all this is accurate (may be, may not be), my guess would be that you need to renew your student pilot certificate and repeat any solo requirements met with flights flown in March or later. Note that any dual flights you did are fine, you don't need a certificate for those.
So I took his word for it figuring he knew all the regs considering he has been instructing for many years.
This is an understandable mistake for a student pilot to make, but I can't stress this enough, you _must_ take charge of your own training, because CFIs are not infallible in this regard.
-harry
It sounds like you got your student pilot cert in Feb of '07, and that you were under 40 at that time. Is that correct? If so, then any solo hours you did after Feb of '09, but before whenever the new reg, announced in August, goes into effect (again, I think this is in October), were done illegally.
-harry
Harry,
That is correct, and thanks for your insight on this!
I just got off the phone with my instructor and he said the our local FSDO explained that I would need to get another third class medical exam and then all would be good after that. :confused: This makes no sense to me because my medical is still good until 2012, so why get another medical in order to get the student pilot certificate renewed when I can just have the DPE re-issue one??
I guess it is a case off taking the "least worse" option, because as you pointed out Harry, I would have to re log all solo hours, or listed to the "boss" aka local FSDO and get a new medical and take the checkride which would only be a couple week delay rather that a couple months if I had to re log all my hours.
Either way.. no checkride tomorrow :mad:
This makes no sense to me because my medical is still good until 2012, so why get another medical in order to get the student pilot certificate renewed when I can just have the DPE re-issue one??
You don't need a new medical, your medical is good for another 2.5 years, so there's no reason to make an appointment with an AME.
What you need is a new student pilot certificate, no "turn your head and cough" required. The FSDO should be able to issue you one fairly promptly. Your AME might be able to do it, too. I dunno about your DPE, but maybe.
What you'll likely end up with is your old combined medical/certificate, which now will serve only as your medical, and a new piece of paper that is only a student pilot certificate, but not a medical. So your pilot certificate and medical will be two separate pieces of paper. At least, I think that's what would happen, I've never had to do it.
-harry
-or- wait until the new rules go into effect. If they do it the same way they did last time, everyone was grandfathered in. That is, after October your student pilot cert. is good for 60 months since original issue.
-or- wait until the new rules go into effect. If they do it the same way they did last time, everyone was grandfathered in. That is, after October your student pilot cert. is good for 60 months since original issue.
That will certainly be the case, so an expired certificate will become "unexpired", but it doesn't change the fact that those flights done in March were done with an expired certificate. The legality of those flights has to be determined with respect to the rules as they existed at the time.
-harry
TheRealOrange
09-09-2009, 13:36
Well the DPE catches the mistake and basically explains that of my hours after FEB. 09 are not valid, which would really suck considering I began in April!I am curious why this would be true. As I understand, you do not need a student pilot certificate for training, but you need it for solo flight. Why wouldn't dual received still be valid regardless of whether a student pilot certificate existed? I can see where solo time might be an issue, including solo xc time, but why dual received?
haulnazz15
09-09-2009, 14:28
Only the solo time would have to be redone, not the dual received. You don't need a student license to log dual received.
I am curious why this would be true. As I understand, you do not need a student pilot certificate for training, but you need it for solo flight. Why wouldn't dual received still be valid regardless of whether a student pilot certificate existed? I can see where solo time might be an issue, including solo xc time, but why dual received?
Yes, I should have added all "solo" hours. sorry
KSCessnaDriver
09-09-2009, 15:11
I knew a guy who this happened to recently, and didn't catch it until the DPE caught it on the checkride. The DPE was ok with it, and was able to issue a new student pilot certificate on the spot. Easiest thing to do, might just be to call the DPE, and ask if he can issue you a new one.
sus_pilot
09-09-2009, 15:47
My take on it is that any solo time doesn't count, since there wasn't a valid student solo pilot (due to the certificate being expired) in the airplane, but any dual is still valid.
The person that this really reflects badly on is the instructor - he should have realized that the two documents (albeit printed on two different sides of the same sheet of paper) have different expirations and made that clear to you prior to your soloing.
angryweb
09-09-2009, 15:47
Now I'm a bit confused myself. I got my third class cert. on June 12, 08 and am under 40. Is it good for 60 months?
Jedi Cheese
09-09-2009, 16:15
Simply put, a student can log PIC time when they are solo even if they don't have a valid student pilot certificate. Very cut and dried per the FAA. Thus don't go making changes in your logbook, the time is still legal.
Secondly, just ask the DE that you will need a student pilot certificate before you do the practical test. Then put in the new date/certificate number into the 8710. It won't affect your checkride at all.
Good news!
This is the response from the local FSDO:
"After reviewing information provided to us by both of you, we have concluded the following:
1. The applicant needs a student pilot certificate issued before starting the checkride. Any endorsements given by the instructor that are on the expired student pilot certificate may be carried forward to the new medical, even though this may cause a date mismatch. The fact is a problem has been identified and taken to the regulatory body, and we are aware of the issue. There is no reason to hide a date mismatch at this point.
2. All flight time earned while operating with the expired student certificate is valid.
3. The instructor and student/applicant will/have been counseled on their lack of attention to detail, and that we expect better performance in the future.
Our office truly appreciates everyone's honesty with regard to this matter.
Let us know if you have any questions."
I just went and received my new certificate from my DPE and have rescheduled my checkride for Monday morning. :D
KeithSmith
09-09-2009, 17:14
This is the response from the local FSDO:
"After reviewing information provided to us by both of you, we have concluded the following:
1. The applicant needs a student pilot certificate issued before starting the checkride. Any endorsements given by the instructor that are on the expired student pilot certificate may be carried forward to the new medical, even though this may cause a date mismatch.
No harm, no foul, but the FSDO didn't quite answer that part correctly. When they wrote "new medical", they should have written "new student certificate". Also, there is no need to carry the endorsements forward to the new certificate. They are still valid even though they are on an expired student certificate. If your flight instructor is agreeable to make all the same endorsements with the current date on your new student certificate, that will eliminate problems that may be encountered with someone who does not understand the process, but legally it makes no difference.
sus_pilot
09-09-2009, 17:40
Simply put, a student can log PIC time when they are solo even if they don't have a valid student pilot certificate. Very cut and dried per the FAA. Thus don't go making changes in your logbook, the time is still legal.
Not disputing what you're saying, but what's the citation? Yes, the student was flying solo, so that time is "real" (I agree that the logbook shouldn't be changed), but it isn't "supported" by a student pilot certificate. Since having a valid student certificate is a requirement, does that time count towards a rating? Certainly, allowing for an honest mistake is the more benign way of looking at it, and the letter presented by the FSDO (error and all) obviates my question in this case, but in general...?
Ok... Here's my take on this (FWIW).
61.5 (a)(1)(i) and 61.11 (a)(1)(2).
Not quite sure I would agree with the FSDO on this one.
Opinions?
Mike
angryweb
09-09-2009, 21:44
Now I'm a bit confused myself. I got my third class cert. on June 12, 08 and am under 40. Is it good for 60 months?
Anybody on this one? I don't want to start a separate thread on it.
PaulThomas
09-09-2009, 21:48
Anybody on this one? I don't want to start a separate thread on it.
Yes.
1234567890
dmspilot
09-09-2009, 21:51
Now I'm a bit confused myself. I got my third class cert. on June 12, 08 and am under 40. Is it good for 60 months? Yes. 1. Your age on the date of the exam is what matters, and 2. The 60 month rule applies to all medicals, not just ones issued after a certain date.
According to http://www.nbaa.org/admin/personnel/medical/, if even your medical was 4 years old and thus expired, and you were under 40 on the exam date, under the new rule it is valid again.
61.5 (a)(1)(i) and 61.11 (a)(1)(2)...Opinions?
I don't think there's any question that a student pilot must have a valid student pilot certificate when flying solo, and that the pilot in this case was flying solo in violation of the regs.
But the big question is "when you do something illegal, can you still log the time for that illegal activity?" There's nothing in 61.51 that suggests that a student pilot who illegally flies solo can't log that time as PIC.
Obviously, we expect that there should be some repercussions for doing things illegally. Disallowing the hours seems "reasonable", but I don't see any reg that suggests that this is an unavoidable consequence, or that the FSDO has the authority to make this call.
One possible interpretation is that while you flew those hours illegally, you're still authorized to log them, per 61.51, but that the FSDO has the authority to ding you somehow for doing that illegal thing, but that, in this case, they have chosen to waive any penalty.
-harry
KeithSmith
09-09-2009, 23:08
Not disputing what you're saying, but what's the citation? Yes, the student was flying solo, so that time is "real" (I agree that the logbook shouldn't be changed), but it isn't "supported" by a student pilot certificate. Since having a valid student certificate is a requirement, does that time count towards a rating? Certainly, allowing for an honest mistake is the more benign way of looking at it, and the letter presented by the FSDO (error and all) obviates my question in this case, but in general...?There are several cases where similar things have happened and the time was held to be good. The one I remember most vividly was an examiner who inadvertently failed to renew his examiner authority and continued administering practical tests. Several of the practical tests were for flight instructors who went on to do what flight instructors do by recommending students for practical tests. When the error was discovered, it was not a happy moment, but nobody had their certificates recalled.
I've found aircraft that have been unairworthy for years. Typically because of a missing 14 CFR 91.207(d) endorsement. Having an airworthy aircraft is also a requirement, but imagine the pandemonium trying to roll back all the flying that had been done in the airplane.
As far as a citation, I didn't look for one and it is possible that none exist. When I'm not so tired I'll take a look, but I suspect the odds are that I won't find one. But, I do know that is the way it has been handled in practice in the past.
The case the OP encountered is VERY common.
FlyingBull
09-10-2009, 12:33
If every federal regulation was enforced 100% in every single situation without regard to reasonableness, then the entire legitimate economy would quickly grind to a screeching halt leaving only drug dealing and prostitution. To demand 100% consistency in application pushes the bureaucracy towards that standard and is therefore itself a destructive force.
dmspilot
09-10-2009, 15:20
Why should a student pilot certificate expire anyway? It's just a piece of paper and the instructor is the person that makes it "active." And I don't think medicals and student pilot certificates should be on the same piece of paper, either.
Why should a student pilot certificate expire anyway?
A good question. Yep...it's "just a piece of paper". But until the regs change...it does expire at 24 months.
Mike
KeithSmith
09-12-2009, 11:17
Why should a student pilot certificate expire anyway? It's just a piece of paper and the instructor is the person that makes it "active." And I don't think medicals and student pilot certificates should be on the same piece of paper, either.Trying to answer questions about regulations that start with “why” is always dangerous, so let me begin by saying, I don’t know why. However, part of the logic may involve keeping track of active students.
The FAA is charged with making recommendations to lawmakers about aviation. The FAA is also required to estimate the impact of regulatory changes before implementation. If student certificates never expired, it would make it more difficult to quantify that aspect of aviation. Also, if the FAA needed to send safety information to active pilots of record, there would be a lot of people included in the distribution who are no longer active pilots.
If we are going to ask “why” questions, a good one to ask would be why the FAA didn’t change the duration of the student pilot certificate at the same time they changed the validity of the medicals. Or we could ask why there are so many CFIs out there who don’t understand that student certificates expire.
I agree with you that medicals and student certificates should not be on the same piece of paper. I suspect it was an idea years ago to keep someone from having to put two pieces of paper in their typewriter, but those days are long gone.
Motivated
09-12-2009, 11:28
"Why" a medical is required for a PPL is a good question. I've heard it has been challenged in the past.
Good news!
...snip...
I just went and received my new certificate from my DPE and have rescheduled my checkride for Monday morning. :D
Glad it worked out well in your situation. :)
We discovered a similar issue before I was about to solo...I had renewed my medical a 2nd time, but this didn't actually renew my student cert as we had assumed. DPE was at the FBO for a checkride with someone else a few days later, so he just did it on the spot in IACRA.
Good luck on Monday!
"Why" a medical is required for a PPL is a good question. I've heard it has been challenged in the past.
<sigh> :rolleyes:
Mike
Motivated
09-13-2009, 10:18
Removed by self.
PASSED!
It did not go as smooth as I thought, but it was a lot quicker than I anticipated at 2 hours of oral and 1.4 on the hobbs.
During the oral my mind was blank, maybe from not being able to sleep at all last night! So I think if I passed the oral, anyone can because I would have graded myself like a 50%.
The flight went well for the most part.. We started out with the soft field take off and then got set up for the x-country route. As soon as I was climbing out on my heading he put the hood on me and did the instrument stuff: turns, climbs, and unusual attitude recoveries. He did try and get me lost under the hood and just asked how I would find my way back to the local airport, and all I did was tune to the VOR at the airport, (it was already tuned in), and identify it and then twist the dial until the needle centered and read "TO" and told him I would fly that heading. That was all he needed for the hood stuff. Next was the steep turn, then slow flight with out flaps and straight into a banked power on stall (I have only practiced the banked stall maybe twice), and then the power off stall.
Just when I thought we were in the middle of the ride he said "alright, lets head back", so I wasn't quite sure if failed something or not and then I thought that this was a trick and it would be a perfect time for the emergency procedure. Just as I spotted a perfect field he pulled the power on me, so I executed that one with flying colors.
We headed back into the pattern and did short and soft field landings, which may have been a couple of my worst yet :eek: but as we taxied back he congratulated me and shook my hand, so I guess i did something right!
:D:D:D:D:D:D
Congratulations there Pilot!! :)
PASSED!
Congrats! I'll be up soon with my checkride tentatively scheduled for the first week of October. Currently at 44 hours with two hours of hood and two hours of solo left to go.
haulnazz15
09-14-2009, 15:50
Banked stall? please elaborate. . .
Banked stall? please elaborate. . .
Power on turning stall with 20 deg. of bank.
Motivated
09-14-2009, 16:00
PASSED!
That's what I like to hear. :D
That's what I like to hear. :D
Trust me, ME TOO!
Thanks guys!
sandfarmer
09-14-2009, 21:27
Way to go man!
I like to read the write ups on checkrides as I get closer and closer to mine. My instructor has introduced banked stalls lately and now I'm glad since it looks like they can throw that at you too!
tomcat7269
09-15-2009, 01:13
Congrats!!!! It only gets better now!
angryweb
09-15-2009, 02:00
Congrats!!!
AceAirspeed
09-15-2009, 07:19
PASSED!
It did not go as smooth as I thought, but it was a lot quicker than I anticipated at 2 hours of oral and 1.4 on the hobbs.
During the oral my mind was blank, maybe from not being able to sleep at all last night! So I think if I passed the oral, anyone can because I would have graded myself like a 50%.
...so I guess i did something right!
:D:D:D:D:D:D
Don't be so hard on yourself. You answered the questions sufficiently to convince the DPE that you have enough knowledge to be safe. And good job convincing him in 1.4 that you can actually fly safe.
Congratulations! Now go out and commit aviation on the world.
haulnazz15
09-15-2009, 09:00
I don't suppose I have ever heard of anyone doing a stall (power on or off) with anything other than wings level unless they are doing aerobatics or demonstrating an incipient spin.
I don't suppose I have ever heard of anyone doing a stall (power on or off) with anything other than wings level unless they are doing aerobatics or demonstrating an incipient spin.
The PP PTS says, for power-off stalls:
5. Maintains a specified heading, ±10°, in straight flight; maintains a
specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10°; in turning flight,
while inducing the stall.
The DPE can specify the power-off stall be done either straight-ahead, or turning with a specified bank angle.
-harry
Motivated
09-15-2009, 10:20
I don't suppose I have ever heard of anyone doing a stall (power on or off) with anything other than wings level unless they are doing aerobatics or demonstrating an incipient spin.
My instructor termed them as "turn to approach" stalls, simulating an error made in the base & final turns. Yours didn't make you do them?
My instructor termed them as "turn to approach" stalls, simulating an error made in the base & final turns.
I suppose you could think of it that way, but do be aware that what most people think of as the classical "base to final stall" is actually a cross-controlled stall, a configuration that can lead to a spin. PP students aren't generally trained to do this, and there's nothing in the PP PTS that suggests doing uncoordinated stalls.
-harry
Years ago the training for a PP according to the FAA was that spin recovery was a must. Not sure why it is not now, my CFI made me do 2.0 of spin recovery, 1.0 in my 172 and 1.0 in his 152 aero bat. I too was told by my DPE to do a approch stall at 20 degrees.
haulnazz15
09-15-2009, 10:56
My instructor did not demonstrate cross-controlled stalls, but made it apparent that a cross-controlled situation especially from base to final is a no-no. His main comment regarding pattern work and final approach was, "airspeed will kill ya". We trained ina 172 which is not rated for spins, so he probably didn't press cross-controlled stalls to avoid the spin. Keeping the controls coordinated during stalls was the most important thing to him.
In any case, I'll hopefully gets some aero/spin training as part of my pre-BFR dual time. That should cover any lack in banked stalls proficiency. :o
Banked stall? please elaborate. . .
Totally fine to test this. Fun, too!
Most stall and spin accidents happen out of banked conditions with inappropriate yaw. From what I hear, naturally, most people tend to try to pick the low wing up with ailerons, which is in fact aggravating the situation.
Congrats on the passed test!
sus_pilot
09-15-2009, 13:33
My instructor did not demonstrate cross-controlled stalls, but made it apparent that a cross-controlled situation especially from base to final is a no-no. His main comment regarding pattern work and final approach was, "airspeed will kill ya". We trained ina 172 which is not rated for spins, so he probably didn't press cross-controlled stalls to avoid the spin. Keeping the controls coordinated during stalls was the most important thing to him.
In any case, I'll hopefully gets some aero/spin training as part of my pre-BFR dual time. That should cover any lack in banked stalls proficiency. :o
But a turning stall isn't cross-controlled, nor is it uncoordinated. It's just a stall that happens while you're turning. My students all see what a descending, turning stall looks like and how to recover.
Years ago the training for a PP according to the FFA was that spin recovery was a must. Not sure why it is not now...
I was told that it was because more people were being lost during planned spin instruction than were being lost to unintentional spin accidents.
We did (coordinated) banked stalls in training, but not on the checkride. In the DA20 they were actually a little easier to recover from than wings level it seemed.
We did (coordinated) banked stalls in training, but not on the checkride. In the DA20 they were actually a little easier to recover from than wings level it seemed.
I had 20* banked Power On and Power Off stalls in training and in the checkride (actually, in the checkride he had me do them in both directions - different rudder inputs.) Both are in the PP PTS. That's the way I teach them. Also did the cross-controlled stall in PP training just for fun! :D
Mike
Motivated
09-15-2009, 17:01
I suppose you could think of it that way, but do be aware that what most people think of as the classical "base to final stall" is actually a cross-controlled stall, a configuration that can lead to a spin. PP students aren't generally trained to do this, and there's nothing in the PP PTS that suggests doing uncoordinated stalls.
-harry
I think I understand the scenario you're mentioning... where the student overshoots the final turn badly and through a variety of compensations ends up cross-controlled on final? That's deadly, so I read.
In my case it was a garden variety coordinated turn with half-flaps at approach speed, pull too far back on the stick and enter the stall. My examiner never asked for it, but I practiced it quite a bit. Unfortunately I did experience an uncoordinated stall, but I never did it again.
KeithSmith
09-15-2009, 19:28
My students all see what a descending, turning stall looks like and how to recover.Indeed, a very wise thing to teach thoroughly.
In 2008, we averaged more than one fatal stall related accident a week. It is hard to imagine that anyone can be over-trained to handle this type of event.
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