Failed CFII Checkride. ! ! !

[ILS/DME]

I have been a Pilot for 7 years, Instrument rated for 6 years and a commercial pilot for 2. I have 1000Hrs TT and 100 Multi. I decided 2 months ago to get all my CFI rating so I can continue bulding hours and getting compensated for it. I went to the FSDO in FLL and passed my initial CFI. After 8 hour oral and 2 hour flight I passed. A week later I was scheduled to take CFII checkride with the same examiner. I do stay proficient with instruments, like once a week I get a CFI and we get under the hood to shoot approaches, and do holds.
So on the day of the checkride I got up in the morning and checked the AWOS and it was 400 OVC. So I called the examiner and he said come in for the oral. So I head there and he starts qualifying me and reviewing my Instrument currency. He looks at the column that says "Simulated instrument" 256 Hrs. Approaches 136 in the last 6 months. Then looks at the Actual Instrument and sees 0.0 Hrs over my whole flying career. I am sitting there and looking at his surprised look. I go on and ask him "Is there a problem sir?" He said that I don't have any actual flight time ever. I say ' sir the FAR doesn't require any actual for IFR currency. So the examiner says that after the oral we will do the flight portion with it being 400 OVC and If I have a problem with this come back the next day but with a pink slip. I thought it's an absolute insanity taking off with such a low ceiling in a Piper Seminole, so I made a decision and rescheduled for a week from tomorrow.

[ILS/DME]

BTW. Our schools insurance policy doesn't allow to take off if the Ceiling is lower then 1200. And doesn't let us fly on the X/C if the forecasted conditions at destination from 1Hr before to 1Hr after schedualed arrival are less then 2000 Ceiling, 3 SM Visibility. Basically if you need an alternate, you don't need to be going there. But our planes are Piper Seminoles with Dual GNS 430 GPS, HSI, all that good stuff.

[midlifeflyer]

There is a definite current of thought that pilots should not receive their instrument rating to begin with without some actual time. And probably even more thought that a CFI shouldn't be teaching it without some experience in actual instrument conditions.

I would have refused to go up with the DPE based on the FBO minimums (although if the DPE works with the school a lot, they'd probably waive it for him), but if the DPE is willing to waive the benefit that FAR 61.47 give him for me to get some actual with another very qualified pilot on board, I'd probably jump at the opportunity.

I'm not sure about that pink slip, though... Sounds wrong. And receiving it, I'd be at least thinking about another Examiner - what would probably have been a very easy ride in actual may turn out to be a balabusta when simulated.

[Jedi Nein]

Originally posted by ILS/DME
So the examiner says that after the oral we will do the flight portion with it being 400 OVC and If I have a problem with this come back the next day but with a pink slip.

1. FAA policy is to NOT conduct checkrides in IMC.
2. Failing an applicant for following their personal minimums is not proper.

You have to decide if you want to fight this failure. The failure will stay on your record, even if you do prevail. You will get to answer 'yes' to all future interviews that ask if you ever failed a checkride.

With the above in mind, a contact with the inspector's supervisor is in order as the failure just ain't right.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

[jfitzpat]

If the ceiling was above published minimums for the airport and there was no convective weather or other hazards (ex. icing), the Examiner was most likely within the letter of the law to pink slip you.

Remember, you are requesting the priviledge of training and certifying pilots to fly in instrument conditions. It is at the examiners discretion to establish if, in fact, you can actually do what you intend to teach.

If there was an ILS with a typical DA, and you thought 400' was insanity, I would expect zero slack on the ride. Hood time is a far cry from actual, and examiners know it.

Most the good CFII's I know out here won't sign off an IR student until they get a little dual actual. But we're lucky, I can often get a situation where an airport on the coast is down to minimums, so you can go missed, then fly to clear skies in Antelope valley and wait for the weather to burn off.

-jjf

Edit: Both Mark and JN are correct, it is not FAA policy, however part 61 does give examiners discretion.

Personally, I've always thought that the lack of any actual in the requirements is idiocy. We require actual VFR night experience for that priviledge. But that subject tabled, the examiner may have been just looking at your response.

'Sir, my FBO requires X for insurance purposes. Shall I call and request a waiver?' Might have gotten you a better response.

I don't know if the personal minimums argument will get you much sympathy, since yours seem to be clear+, and you have taken no steps to cautiously develop actual experience over a fairly substantial flight career. By defination, most IR students expect that they will be using the ticket to at least pop up and down through overcast layers when the need arises.

[ILS/DME]

I totally agree with what's been said above, this examiner deals with alot of our students and does have full authority to take away minimums. My guess is that I wouldn't be very comfortable going up on my first time into IMC and it being my checkride. I guess the schools policies regarding minimums and their discouragement of Actual Flying have shown up. Most of our instructors will not instruct under Actual. One day there was an 3000 OVC Startus Smooth no wind or Turbulance and 3 of our instructors would be doing holds at 2500 with hoods on. And their training of weather awareness has been excellent, but they really discourage Actual flying. So I don't even know how I can get any Actual experiance if I wanted to. Does anyone know any flight schhols that don't have such minimums and where I can rent a plane and go to a destination of 400 OVC?

[pilotman2105]

From the CFII PTS:

When a practical test is discontinued for reasons other than unsatisfactory performance (i.e., equipment failure, weather, or illness) FAA Form 8700-1, Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, and, if applicable, the Airman Knowledge Test Report, shall be returned to the applicant. The examiner at that time shall prepare, sign, and issue a Letter of Discontinuance to the applicant. The Letter of Discontinuance should identify the AREAS OF OPERATION and their associated TASKs of the practical test that were successfully completed.
The applicant shall be advised that the Letter of Discontinuance shall be presented to the examiner when the practical test is resumed, and made part of the certification file.

Obviously you're attributing to the end of the test to weather. This seems pretty clear to me. Did you get a pink slip or a Letter of Discontinuance.

Here is an excerpt from the 8710-3E which is the Examiners Handbook:

5-1-2
A. Personal Prejudices. An examiner must not allow personal prejudices to interfere with the objective evaluation of an applicant. If a personality conflict or disagreement develops between the examiner and the applicant prior to any unsatisfactory performance by the applicant, the examiner or the applicant may discontinue the practical test. In this case, the examiner issues a letter of discontinuance.

5-1-12. PRACTICAL TEST DISCONTINUANCE. Environmental, mechanical, or personal situations can occur which could cause the test to be discontinued. In such cases, the examiner should assure the applicant that he/she has not failed the practical test and should attempt to reschedule the test as soon as possible. Some of the reasons for discontinuance of a practical test are weather, mechanical problems, or incapacitation of the applicant or examiner after the test has begun.

IMO, this was incredibly inappropriate on the part of the examiner, an attempt to "show you up," force you to exceed your personal minimums, and I would certainly pursue it further.

I personally have very limited actual experience as well and I hold a CFII certificate. But I wouldn't expect to be force by an examiner to fly in LIFR (which this is) on my first flight into actual, which also happens to be my checkride. As PIC, I wouldn't be making that flight, before or after getting the CFII ticket, and to be threatened with a pink slip for not making the flight on the theory that I "should" be able to if I'm going to instruct is very unsafe (can someone say hazardous attitude "macho?").

This examiner put pressure on an inexperienced pilot and threatened an applicant with an abuse of the examiner's authority. How would we all think if the examiner took a private pilot applicant up in BKN012 4SM? It's legal, so they should be able to fly into it right? Hell, even taking a CFI applicant up in that stuff VFR. There's some experienced people here. Would you take your CFI ride in that kind of crap?

Is this examiner a DE or FSDO?

You may want to start with an ASRS report.

[Beers]

Originally posted by ILS/DME
Does anyone know any flight schhols that don't have such minimums and where I can rent a plane and go to a destination of 400 OVC?

There has got to be someplace closer, but Seattle is a good bet. We flew a lot in actual up there as you can imagine. With the varying terrain (600' field elevation differences just around the Puget Sound) you could find an airport down below minimums in one area and still have several airports above minimums nearby.

Even with the actual experience we had in Seattle, I'm not sure we would do a checkride with 400 overcast, seems too low. During the checkride you are simulating emergencies and since you were in a Seminole, likely practicing single-engine approaches. Under those circumstances I would have liked to see more wiggle room, no matter what seat I was sitting in. Sounds like it would have been a good day to go up and just shoot approaches with the instructor where you can keep them normal and not be forced to fail systems. (Edit: I just realized what you said about the school and instructors regarding actual. Not likely to happen.)

What was the weather trend, was it supposed to get lower during the day, stay the same, or get better?

[ILS/DME]

It was forecasted to improve but was not improving. The instructor clarified this to me later saying that he would have given me a letter of discontinuance if I could have demonstrated my instrument proficiency to him in actual by going out and doing 1 hold followed by some sort of an approach. No failing systems of anything. He said that he wanted to make sure I was current and not actually do the checkride that day. The reason for failier was stated as. Failier to demonstrate instrument proficiency. Hopefully the weather will be nice next week so I won't have to deal with this crap again. Like I said at my school no one flies any actual at all. If it's cloudy and you can't find a hole then you don't fly. It's a joke but all the CFI's are afraid of clouds. lol. I am thinking about going to a Cessna Pilot center and getting checked out in their plane and Flying some actual. Because it's one thing simulating with your instructor ATC communications. Pretending he's the controller and I am the pilot and actually talking to them. During my training 6 years ago we did that once on my long IFR x/c and it was a clear day.

[ILS/DME]

BTW I did my IFR training in Phoenix, AZ. You are lucky to see a cloud there and if you do it's those cumulous heat of the afternoon clouds that all the CFI are so afraid of. They said the level of turbulance inside is unbelibable.

[Beers]

They would be right about the turbulence in a cumulus cloud, it is not fun to go through one developing on a nice sunny day. Even a small one can really rock you. Unfortunately there are areas of the country where you cannot safely get into actual more than a couple of times a year. If you are in one of those areas, you are not likely to find an instructor who has much actual time making it even harder to gain that experience.

One thing I am really surprised at hearing is how many people go up and just have their instructor simulate ATC for the approaches. I guess it depends on how busy the airspace is and if it can be done safely around the traffic.

[ILS/DME]

Like when we practice approaches ussually at uncontrolled airports, but if we practice them at controlled we simply call up the tower and ask them if we can do a certain approach. They usually reply just report the final approach fix inbound. When I said not talking to ATC, I meant Approach/Departure controll/ARTCC. I only talked once or twice to those guys. So for the lack of that experiance we substitute alot of simulated stuff, when a CFI pretends to be a controller and I have to read back and follow all the instructions.

[Jedi Nein]

Hmmm, I was up in the clouds twice today and once this past weekend. Two times were with student pilots, one pre-solo. Both students will do their IFRs immediately after finishing the private. Both understand completely that they stay out of the clouds 'til certified, and both are learning the warning signs of pressing too far VFR.

Anyways, come on over. We have a very thick marine layer overhead with a high freezing level. It's perfect for IMC training. It's VNY, in California, a little closer than SEATAC.

Back to the checkride, how could you fail to demonstrate IFR proficiency if you didn't fly? If the guy is an examiner and not the FAA, it's worth a call to the DPE's assigned FAA Inspector. You had your personal minimums and the guy violating (failing) you for following them is not right. His personal agenda belongs in letters to the FAA, not involving you!

[ILS/DME]

1st question, Does your school allow solo flight into IMC and if yes what are the minimums. I would be looking forward to some solo flight in clouds once I been up with an instructor.
2nd Question. how friendly are the controllers to small planes. I have lived in several areas of the country and encountered all kinds of controllers. I can assume with all the air traffic in the area the controllers wouldn't want any small planes anywhere near LAX, ONT, LGB, and Orange county airports.

3. I failed to demonstrate ability to fly by instruments (According to the DE). He said there is no reason that a CFII shouldn't be able to fly in IMC.

[pilotman2105]

Originally posted by ILS/DME
3. I failed to demonstrate ability to fly by instruments (According to the DE). He said there is no reason that a CFII shouldn't be able to fly in IMC.

And there are varying degrees of IMC. OVC004 is LIFR, requiring a different skill level than flying in OVC050, clear below and 8SM.

I seriously hope you pursue a remedy to this.